This is just ignorant and ethnocentric. Mercy was not an invention of christ, much, much older philosophies espouse the same principles. Read anything buddha, confucius, plato, lao tsu etc said and you will see this. The golden rule (treat others as you would have them treat you) was stated by christ – but it was also stated by every person I just listed before him, dozens more and the oldest version of it in written history is from the code of hammurabi (ancient babylonian law) which pre-dates the oldest book of the old testament by over a thousand years.

As far as rape being part of the spoils of war before christianity, have you read your bible?

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.”

- Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (NIV)

@Buckersniff - Where was this?

@RobertLeeRE - Please quote anything I dishonestly took out of context? I seem to recall debating with someone who insisted I always took scripture out of context, to which I replied by asking how more context changed anything and pointing out that anything short of posting the entire bible is “out of context” which he just ignored – was that you? But yeah, please back up your claims by quoting my lies and misquotations or retract them.

@RobertLeeRE - Disagreeing with people is not what it means to be a troll. You are free to disagree with me on my blog. You are even free to be insulting and rude if you like – I censor no one. I guess you could say I turn the other cheek – unlike some people.

@RobertLeeRE - True in his case, though I occasionally swear when the person I’m talking to is being a monumental pain in the ass.

“If you concede that Christianity popularized (or helped popularize) the idea that women are not to be raped as spoils of war, then is that not shaping the view that Western society has had of mercy?”

I don’t see how that is possible, since christ said that the “old” laws would apply until heaven and earth disappear and that any disobedience against them would not be christianity, but an act of heresy. I don’t recall you giving any actual evidence that christianity had any effect on peoples’ views about rape in warfare, you just blindly assert it with no basis (and try to equate “liberalism” with sociopathic brutality, again with no logic, argument or evidence). In fact for most of the last 2,000 years rape in the christian world was considered a property violation, illegal use of the husband’s property – this was based on a scripture. In the bible if a man rapes a woman he is to pay a fine to her father and she is to be forced to marry him. Does that sound anything like our modern views on the subject of rape? Yes christianity has had an impact on western civilization, but so has secular thought, science, philosophy and on a more fundamental level – empathy.

“And if we say that the early Christians spread this view, as they spread their church . . . is it not only reasonable to say that the spread of Christianity did make a difference? I’m not asking you to unilaterally sing the praises of Christianity, but if you can’t concede that it made any kind of difference in history, then I don’t think we can have a reasonable discussion.”

I agree, that would be ridiculous. But that wasn’t the discussion we were having. You painted a picture of a brutal, evil world where jesus emerges on a white horse and invents kindness and decency. That’s simply not how history went down. Plato in his book The Republic (his outline for what he believed to be a perfect society) said that if a man is suited to wash dishes he should wash dishes and if a woman is suited to be a leader, she should be a leader. This was almost 400 years before the birth of christ and nearly 23 centuries before the first nation on earth gave women the vote. It’s also worth noting that every civil rights movement came only after the collapse of christian theocracy and the church’s power.

I’m unaware of the early church spreading an anti-rape message, but if they did so it would be heretical. But then again jesus was a huge heretic.

“I don’t really think you can coherently claim that humanism predates Christianity, as it came after . . . nor would I be eager to equate modern neopaganism with pre-Christian paganism.”

I said nothing about humanism. And the term humanism was coined relatively recently, but the basic idea of giving a shit about other human beings is nothing new. I wasn’t trying to turn this into a pissing contest and claim atheists invented morality. I think morality is just the natural extension of human emotion, logic and an understanding of the practical consequences of actions and that it doesn’t have any singular origin in human civilization. In fact “morality” in a sense exists in nature as compulsions and instincts and logically must therefore pre-date the rise of human intelligence.

“Yes, you can certainly point out parts of the Bible that seem to condone rape, but my point is rather that early Christians frowned on rape, and spread that attitude, and that was eventually something that affected Western Society as a whole.”

It sure took it’s time.

“I don’t have the book on hand but I do recall reading in history that Roman women would actually encourage their husbands to adopt Christianity as it was more humane to them than the paganism that immediately predated it.”

That may well be true, it was a progressive philosophy for it’s time.

“In any case, you’re now judging Christianity by modernist standards, which is rather far afield of the original question, which is, “Did Christianity change things in Western society relative to what predated it?” I think it would be pretty hard to return a unilateral “no” to that.”

That wasn’t the original question. And while christianity has had an enormous impact a) it’s not all been good, and b) it’s not all stemmed from jesus himself. I would argue that constantine, paul, the catholic church, king james and a host of other people have had more influence over what we call “christianity” today than jesus did. I look at what we call christianity today in the US, especially in the social conservatism of the republican party, then I read the sermon on the mount and am baffled by how completely opposite the two are. So when you say christianity I think of several things – the actual teachings of jesus, the old testament stuff that was bound up with it by tradition, and the various religions and movements and institutions made in his name. I think if someone followed what jesus said and only that, they’d be less likely to condone or endorse rape (assuming they’re not themselves a sadist), but I think 2,000 years ago if anyone had stood up and said lets have harsher punishments for rapists, someone would spout scripture and shut them down the way people shut down gay rights advocates today with the sort of “so you’re saying god and the bible are wrong?!” type of arguments.

“Also. . . just so we are clear, you are aware that whatever is written in Deuteronomy comes before the spread of Christianity, right? It is part of the Old Testament, which encouraged the Jews to wage holy war against their enemies.”

But it’s a part of christianity that cannot be theologically separated. Christians today like to ignore it, but they also like the ten commandments and the golden rule (in leviticus), and the creation story and a lot of other stuff. No one would suggest “you shall not murder” doesn’t apply anymore. And the ten commandments condones slavery. Christians tend to just ignore this and try not to think about it.